Wednesday, March 07, 2007

Comments I've put on Hirhurim about ID and Miracles

(these comments were taken from the post below)

on comment "explaining" miracles:

what is the point in saying the annenei hakavod were volcanic plumes, etc.?all these things would all still be very unikely so y not just say the electrons, etc. somehow moved in just the right way so as to split seas, etc. it's the same unlikely probability. in addition what was the point in appearing miraculous? to trick the Jews of the time? if it was a miracle to them, y should we have to say it wasn't really? what exactly is the point in saying miracles weren't miraculos? the Ramban explains the purpose in having them happen, what's so problematic? miracles completely show that G-d created and cares about the world and there's Hashgacha. people who don't like the idea shouldn't like the idea of the universe being created in 10 ma'amoros either, it's the same thing - G-d appears to b doing things in a (chvsh) "cheaper" way, y couldn't He just do it w/o miracles, with only one ma'amar? but there is a reason - it adds value to the world, it shows G-d cares even about us...
people might not like the idea of law-breaking miracles b/c they don't happen nowadays, but we don't have nevuah either. there was s/t about the times of a'vodah zara that made nevuah and maybe miracles able to happen (perhaps they didn't affect bechirah as much then) nowadays it's not like that and we can't even detect those times well, the Jews' clothes didn't even wear out, they left no records.
eventually this will b discussed more on my blog.
(rav on 10 makkos)


Hirhurim, ur point is not relevant to design:

Hirhurim: This came to mind recently upon reading an article about the merits of various scientific theories by a rabbi with no advanced scientific training, in which the author declared a particular scientific theory to be "illogical" and unscientific.

me: maybe to declare a theory illogical w/o knowledge is wrong but certain conclusions can be drawn no matter what. certain issues do not require the best scientific knowledge to determine. this universe appears designed no matter what level of scientific knowledge u have. u could have lived 3819 years ago and recognized there was a designer just by looking at the universe. u could live now and with just a superficial knowledge of physics and biology and recognize the design. u could be a biochemist and see it even more. or u could be a future scientist, where it will be even clearer to the unbiased. just like a computer appears designed even without having any clue how the CPU works, so too the universe. of course, if u understand the inner workings of a computer, u'll have more appreciation of it, and the same goes for the universe. its a mitzvah to learn about the universe so u can come to greater fear and love of g-d. even though there are many scientists who look at the universe and say it's purely random, a person with much less knowledge can still realize that the scientists are completely wrong. u don't even need to know statistics and probability to tell that this universe was designed.
(fake torah and science)

anti-miracles?
while i agree w/ r' sax that we can find G-d in nature, i believe miracles r still important. they show w/o doubt that G-d exists, cares about our actions and the world and intervenes when necessary. the miracles of yetzias mitzrayim, matan torah and coming into eretz yisroel r the foundation of Judaism, and explain y we have lasted for 3300 yrs.
miracles make even the non-believer exclaim "this is a finger of G-d!". r' sacks says this is a pagan way of thinking. so when the jew saw the "hand of G-d" that was also bad? all the miracles that happened to the jews - what were they for? so they should come to pagan conclusions?
a more sophisticated approach is necessary. nature is amazing and can bring one to figure out theres a G-d, but at certain points in history, G-d performs miracles so the jews can "see" G-d.
(g-d of gaps post)

2 comments:

WFB said...

didn't you already post these comments you posted as a post? what is this cheap move of posting comments on a post as a post anyhow?

Zappable said...

I was sorting out the ID posts